The passion for Rome, Chopin and Monk...

[ Anna Ochmann talks to Katarzyna Chojnacka and Carmelo Iorio ]

Carmelo, you come from Cilento in the south of Italy, from ‘zona mitologica’...

Carmelo Iorio: Cilento is indeed a mythological region – almost the whole Odyssey is set there. Punta Licosa, for example, takes its name after one of the Sirens that Ulysses heard at this place. Palinuro, on the other hand, is associated with the legend of the Cyclops Polyphemus. To this day, every summer there is a festival at which people commemorate the events described by Homer by throwing stones into the sea. Cilento is also part of ‘Magna Graecia’ [Great Greece – ed]. A very interesting testimony of this past are the temples in Paestum – Poseidonia as the Greeks call it. Even in the Roman times Cilento retained its independence to such an extent that it had the privilege to mint its own coin. The people of Cilento are also known to have invented a boarding barge, although they belonged to the land, not to the sea culture. Even today older residents of the region cannot even cook fish. Parmenides, the Greek philosopher said that “è il popolo cilentano attaccato come terra alla loro sono gli ulivi attaccati alle rocca” [the people of Cilento are so attached to their land as olive trees are attached to rock – ed].

Kasia, you come from Silesia but now you live in Italy – how did it happen?

Katarzyna Chojnacka: Since my childhood I dreamed about travelling, exploring other countries and cultures. I was interested in history and historical heritage, I read guidebooks. When I was fourteen I travelled to Amsterdam – today young people at this age often  ravel abroad, but back then it used to be something extraordinary. Later, I was in the USA and Canada. I always felt fascinated by foreign countries, I liked to look for inspiring locations. Italy, as the cradle of European civilisation and culture, was particularly appealing. Delving into Italian history, I intuitively dreamed of Rome. It attracted me like a magnet, so, when the opportunity arose, I went there. I was sixteen and at high school – I went on a school trip to the top ten Italian cities. We started from Rome, then there was Florence, Siena, and so on. It was then that I fell in love with ‘la Città Eterna’ [the Eternal City – ed] and I knew that I had to return there for longer. In order to understand the country better and to meet it personally, ‘without intermediaries’ I decided to learn the language.

So first, I learnt Italian, passed the state exam and then I visited my Italian friends to improve my conversational skills. And then, I was impressed not only by the historical monuments but, most of all, by the energy and temperament of the people. When you know the language, you notice and start to admire Italians’ attitude to life, and only then – while living among them – you begin to see the problems which such an attitude may cause [laughter]. The Italian approach to life is open, spontaneous and very vital. They are like Polish people – outgoing, hospitable, especially in the south. I was polishing up my Italian and playing to earn my living when I met Carmelo – a jazz saxophonist, who invited me to play concerts together…

When did music appear in your life?

Carmelo Iorio: In the culture of Cilento, every holiday, every occasion is, to this day, filled with music and dance. So music has always been with me, dance especially, they are in my memories from as early as I can remember. I was a five- or six-year old boy when I was already considered a good dancer. I danced tarantella most of all, which has a rather primeval, strictly defined rhythm pattern and fast tempo. I found these specific, swift movements quite natural as if I had had them in my blood since my birth [laughter]. Tarantella is an ancient, traditional pagan dance. According to folk tradition, it was able to fight the effects of the bite of a tarantula – a poisonous spider which fortunately is much less common today than it was 2000 years ago. The bite was very painful and could paralyse you so in order to undo the paralysis people quickly ‘jumped around’ the bitten person, making noise with anything that came to hand – and this is how the dance originated. Later, musicologists defined the harmony used in tarantella as jumps of fifths. I simply had that rhythm in me. Then, when I was twelve or thirteen, I started playing instruments that were available to me – they were mainly typical Cilento percussion instruments – the tamborra [tambourine – ed] for example and the guitar. At that time I also started to be interested in other kinds of music including pop. I remember listening to Pink Floyd, Deep Purple or Bee Gees.

Katarzyna Chojnacka: Also in my life music appeared as early as when I was five. My dad played the violin and my mum played the piano. However, the suspicions that I might have some musical predispositions arose when I was eight months old [laughter]. They tell this story in my family: I was lying in the room where we had the TV. There was a classical concert on and my granny, who was looking after me, wanted to change the channel. At her every attempt to do that, I started to protest, loudly and clearly, so it became obvious that classical music is my favourite kind of sounds [laughter].

Carmelo, how did it happen that you chose the saxophone – an instrument that is not associated with traditional music in Cilento?

Carmelo Iorio: I got fascinated by the sound of the saxophone the moment I started – also at the age of 12 or 13 – to listen to jazz. At the time I began to play in so called bande [bands – ed]. They were groups of 30-40 people, who even today walk around towns and play music during the towns’ patron festivals. They often play for a few hours, sometimes in scorching heat. They usually use wind instruments. I didn’t play in the bande for long, I wanted to play pop music and they played classical pieces arranged for such groups. I already wanted to play jazz, but there was nobody in my town who would be interested in such music – most people looked at me as if I had come from Mars [laughter]. And to top it all off, I wanted to play the saxophone! Also, there weren’t any teachers who could guide me. I had no money so I had to borrow the instrument, from a few people, actually, and I often repaired it myself. I was fourteen at the time.

And your first saxophone ?

Carmelo Iorio: I bought it when I was 16 years old. A brand new alto-sax. Today I play all kinds of saxophones (tenor, alto, soprano, baritone and bass - ed), but I have the greatest fondness for the alto. In the beginning – for a year or two – I learned on my own, without a teacher. I still work on music instinctively, of course, I perfect my technique, but I am not affected by any particular training system.

Kasia, you play the piano – why such a choice of  instrument?

Katarzyna Chojnacka: Since I remember, the piano has been an important thing in my house, so I started to play it as a child. By ear, spontaneously. Consequently, my parents decided to enrol me for music lessons. I got my first piano as a reward for getting to the Music Academy in Katowice. My parents found an advert in a newspaper, vaguely worded. We called and the seller could not say whether it was a piano or an upright piano. We asked him to count the legs and when he said there were three we went to see it [laughter]. It was somewhere in one of Katowice poorest districts and the instrument was in terrible condition, covered with bags of cement, completely forgotten. My dad renovated it from the outside, and a friend took care of its ‘soul’. It took long but, even today, I like to sit at it and play. It’s a Seiler from 1924. However, my dream is to have one day (apart from a Steinway) a Kawai piano.

You graduated with the highest grade from the Academy of Music in Katowice, from the Department of Composition, Music Theory and Education and you received the award of the Ministery of Culture in the competition for the best MA thesis (The Turangalîla-Symphonie – analysis and interpretation). Two years ago, and again with the highest grade (ten with distinction), you completed the 2nd degree master course for concert pianists at Pontificio Istituto di Musica Sacra in Vatican City. Tell me about this place.

Katarzyna Chojnacka: Il Pontificio Istituto di Musica Sacra, or the Pontifical Institute of Sacred Music is located in Rome but belongs to the Vatican. First of all, they teach Gregorian Chant, choral conducting, composition, organ and musicology. The system is very diverse (depending on the department) and the studies usually last a few years. The master course in piano was introduced only a few years ago. It is one of the most ‘condensed’ courses – it takes two years and comprises two levels (1st and 2nd  degree master). People of various ages and nationalities study at the Institute. Among the last year graduates there were Koreans, the Spanish, Albanians, citizens of Mexico, Andorra, Belgium, Indonesia, Philippines and, of course, Italians. Every year about 700 people - priests, nuns and lay people - study at all departments of the Institute. Everybody has to have prior music education and pass the entrance exam at a high level. At the piano class there are usually one or two people every year, but it happened once that no one was admitted. I know of a few Poles who studied at the Institute, mostly Gregorian chant and choral conducting. In 2010 I completed the 2nd degree master course for concert pianists – my majors being the piano and musical analysis. After each level you need to play the graduation concert assessed by an outside jury. The concert consists of two parts: a recital and a piano concerto with  orchestra. Many people give up after the first degree, due to the fact that the second degree is very difficult, much more ‘concentrated’. You have to prepare a double programme: two recitals and two concertos with orchestra. Exactly thirty days before the graduation concert there is a draw and the commission announces which recital and concert has been chosen. Then, there are only rehearsals. The final concert takes place over two consecutive days. On the first day I played the recital programme consisting of Tchaikovsky’s Four Seasons, the first part of Claude Debussy’s Images, Maurice Ravel’s Valses Nobles et Sentimentales and Preludes by Gershwin. On the second day I played Edward Grieg’s Piano Concerto in A minor. I was especially moved by the fact, that for my concert they opened the Academic Hall dating from the fourteenth century – a beautiful concert hall located in the old premises of the Institute in Piazza Sant’Agostino between the Pantheon and Piazza Navona. The concerts were open to the public.

Carmelo, you mainly play jazz. Why this fascination?

Carmelo Iorio: The turning point was a concert of Massimo Urbani (called European Parker by American critics). I was seventeen and I went to Salerno specifically to listen to him, to listen to live jazz. It was like a blow. I listened to the sound of his alto saxophone, enchanted, I soaked up to those sounds, sometimes very strange as if made by wild animals (a fiercely trumpeting elephant, for example), sounds that I found incomprehensible but truly beautiful. Massimo played outside the register, from the inside, instinctively. I realised what I wanted to do in life. When I came back to my town, which lied 60 kilometres away from Salerno, it was about one in the morning. I was like in a trance – I got into my room at the top of our house, took the saxophone and tried to imitate Massimo’s playing. Of course, I woke up everybody in the house and the parents told me that if I wanted to make such a noise I had to get out [laughter]. But I couldn’t sleep. All the sounds whirled in my head…

How did it happen that you settled in Rome?

Carmelo Iorio: When I was nineteen I decided to leave for Rome. There I had the opportunity to listen to jazz, and, most of all, to learn. I hitchhiked to Rome in September 1984, together with my friend Enzo de Rosa. We had, according to today’s rates, about 100 euros. I was left to my own resources. For over a month we lived under bridges by the Tiber, I slept on my saxophone. I played at underground stations, in Roman squares. It was traditional music which I knew and brought with me from Cilento, the music I had in my soul. In order to get money for school I began to look for a permanent job. I took every opportunity that came around: I worked as a waiter, I washed dishes… Every day I looked for a job and played. After three months I found a stable job at a restaurant, but I gave it up after a month and came back to playing at the underground station. I earned more as a musician, anyway [laughter]. I lived like that for a year. We lived together with three friends, I started to study at jazz schools. At the same time I played in various bands and met a lot of musicians. I really wanted to study with Massimo – thanks to whom I made the decision about my life. On the very first day of my coming to Rome I started to look for him and I was lucky enough to get to him. It was an honour for me to become his student, and after his death I continued my learning with his pupil – Mauro Verrone.

Carmelo, what about your first band?

Carmelo Iorio: I created it two years after my arrival in Rome. It was called Pick Pockets Jazz Quartet. I had played a lot of concerts until then– always as the first alt – also with the jazz orchestras of the school I attended (Scuola Popolare di Musica Testacio). I used the contacts and experience when I formed the Pick Pockets. We played all over Italy and abroad at various festivals, three times at Umbria Jazz Festival in Perugia, at the Salzburg Jazz Festival, in Mont Louis in France, at Villa Celimontana summer festival in Rome, or at Alburni Jazz festival. After a few years the quartet became a quintet. I was a musician, a manager and a composer to boot. We played my compositions arranged later by the members of the band. I was 24-25 and I was fulfilling my dreams – for a few years I lived only on music.

And why, after so many years of living in Rome did you decide to move to Fregene?

Carmelo Iorio: It was a time when I played a lot of concerts, did a lot of concert tours and one day I felt burnt out. I felt that I lost the contact with nature. I was depressed and I knew that only returning to nature might help. Music was still the most important thing but it wasn’t enough to feel good. I realised that the combination of music and nature was the only solution for me. It was the knowledge that came with age, with maturity. You can be a musician, but first of all, you need to be a human being. Fregene saved me. Now I share my life between music (I play concerts, teach music) and… looking for  asparagus in the forest, walking on the beach, cooking… I returned to leaving a free life.

You gave concerts in Canada, Europe, quite a lot in Italy- from Naples to Milan – most of them in Rome. The listeners of Radio Vatican could also get to know Chopin better because of you.

Katarzyna Chojnacka: I have been invited to record for the station two times already, now I am preparing my third recital which will probably be recorded in the autumn. It is a great honour for me. Everything started by coincidence, I got the invitation after one of my concerts in Rome. The choice of the repertoire was left to me and, without any hesitation, I chose Chopin. It was 2008. The second invitation in 2010 was also dedicated to my favourite composer. I was asked to honour Chopin Year, so I played ‘in omaggio a Chopin’, [in homage to Chopin – ed.]. The concerts are recorded live, there is no time for cuts. And then, there was also an interview, in which I talked about the music and its composer. I had the opportunity to draw on my university knowledge [laughter]. Eventually, the material is edited so that the parts of the interview interweave with the pieces. The recordings themselves were made in the old Radio headquarters in the Vatican Gardens. I was really impressed by the room – Studio A, Salone Asunta where they have three pianos. I could also choose the piano for my concert. On the first occasion, I went for Steinway – it sounded better for the repertoire. For the second concert I decided on Bösendorfer grand coda – ‘bestione’ as it is called in the studio, whose bass, while playing the Fantasy in F minor, Op. 49, Nocturne in C minor op.48 and Polonaise in A flat major, Op. 53, gave the pieces incredible depth. The studio itself is located above the gardens in which every day, at certain time, the Pope walks – it was really exciting to think that while I was playing, Benedict XVI was walking there. Another interesting fact is that on the floor below the studio in which I was recording, behind a gold-plated door, they keep the first microphone constructed by Marconi. The leading theme of the autumn concert will be Impressionism.

How is Chopin received in Italy?

Katarzyna Chojnacka: Very well, Italians generally like his music, during concerts I can see how they discover him for themselves, how delighted they are. Especially those who usually do not have anything to do with music, after the concert they often have tears in their eyes. It is a great pleasure and the best gratification when they say to you; “Ci hai fatto sognare” (you made us dream). I am proud that I can play the music which is so close to my heart – I am very attached to my Polish roots and traditions, I would never like to give up my Polish citizenship. I try to make Italians interested in Poland, I like to emphasize that we have a rich tradition and culture, especially music, valuable and interesting achievements and contributions to the international heritage.

Carmelo, you have, on the other hand, performed in Poland, including Gliwice, Cieszyn and Pszczyna. I know that you also played spontaneously at Muniak’s club in Kraków. What inspirations do you get from this international music world?

Carmelo Iorio: I am lucky to have met in my life so many great musicians. I worked with the pianist Romano Mussolini and the trumpeter Cici Santucci. But I have always regarded two people as my guides: they are Charlie Parker and Thelonious Monk. They are so versatile, relevant and diverse players that I always return to them. Apart from them, the most enjoyable and important event for me was – both musically and personally – meeting Kasia. It is because of her that I rediscovered Chopin. I had known his music before, but she taught me to read him differently. He is, in my view, one of the greatest composers and – with all due respect to Beethoven or, say, List – he is the embodiment of piano music. We have Monk in jazz and Chopin in classical music. So today, I can list my four most important musical inspirations: Monk, Charlie Parker, Chopin and... Kasia.

I know that you both have been working on a unique project which combines the music of Monk and Chopin.

Carmelo Iorio: We have called it “From Chopin to Monk”. We started working on this project some time ago – now we are getting ready to record an album. The project has already got the preliminary interest of publishers. In our personal way we combine jazz and classical music. Good music is always music, regardless of the style, although quite often the ‘believers’ in one genre close themselves to other kinds of music. We want to eliminate this gap. It is culture, not emotions that separates these two musical genres. Chopin’s music may fascinate everyone, it is not reserved only for concert halls or churches. In our project we play together with Kasia. We always start with Chopin – Kasia chooses the pieces very carefully and precisely, she builds up the tension and, at certain point, I start to weave in this music a jazz tune, and then another instrumentalist begins their solo.

Katarzyna Chojnacka: What is extremely important and at the same time makes our project stand out, is that we do not interfere in any way in the structure of Chopin’s works.

Carmelo Iorio: Because it would be a bit like improving the Mona Lisa [laughter].

Katarzyna Chojnacka: Chopin’s music evolves quite naturally into Monk’s. And this very moment of transition is crucial. We hope that our project will inspire other musicians. We have not heard of such an attitude – most musicians improvise on Chopin’s themes, but we, Carmelo Ioro Quartet and I, solo on the piano, do not interfere with his music but show its modern character, multilevel nature, depth and universality…

Carmelo Iorio: I hope we will be able to play the project in Europe, to show it more often. This is the first interview in which we speak about it – I hope we will thus be able to spread the idea also in Poland.

Carmelo, let us return  for a moment to  your inspiration. I know that one of your main inspirations is your best friend... the dog Paco.

Carmelo Iorio: Paco has always been my friend, sometimes I think that we had been meant for each other even before we ‘decided to’ meet physically [laughter]. When it happened Paco was six weeks old, he was tiny and very sickly. Two or three families that had been interested in him changed their minds and he was about to be placed in an animal shelter. He was at the time in my friend’s bar, and Filomeno – my contrabassist friend decided to take him. But because of his work he didn’t have time to go and take the dog, so he asked me to give him a favour. I wasn’t considering having a dog, I knew that it meant a big responsibility and extra duties which I could not take on because of my busy professional life. But I went to the bar and saw Paco’s eyes looking at me from a shoebox with hope and trust and we have never parted since. I took him right away to the beach, where I worked as a lifeguard and he sank in the sand, not being able to walk on such ground…

Paco is also the honorary ‘preside’ [president – ed] of the music school – Scoula di musica of La Pantera Rosa, that you have set up and run together in Fregene. As musical educators – what in your opinion is the most important in the process of sharing knowledge and teaching music skills?

Katarzyna Chojnacka: An individual approach to students and, like in other spheres of life, you must be a bit of a psychologist. What differentiates music teachers form other teachers is that you share emotions, not just objective information. The students somehow enter the intimate sphere of the teacher’s emotions and the sharing takes place. A unique bond between a student and his master is created. Apart from sharing the love for music, from the pragmatic point of view, you also need to teach how to be systematic, how to respect the instrument and everything you do if you want to do it well.

Iorio Carmelo: My own way to music was very instinctive, it resulted from passion, that is why I believe that the crucial, fundamental moment in musical education is when the student comes and says: “I want to play”. This is when a musician is born. A teacher’s role is to avoid limiting, closing or standardising a student “basta non chiudergli le finestre che ha già aperte verso il mondo” [it is enough not to close the windows he has already opened – ed]. This is the most important thing. A teacher has to assist his student to develop not just musically, but also in understanding the world. Because it is not the form which is the most important but the love for music. Forms, including those arising from culture are less important. The student – teacher form as well. I like to show my students how to arrange sounds, to inspire their own explorations. I learn from my students too, for example, when I have to express emotions, the content of my soul, in words. Because teaching by means of music is not always possible, sometimes you need to explain something, and in order to verbalize the matter you need to understand it well. And this is the most difficult thing – to word something which is instinctive. To listen and play with simplicity – like a child, without any striving, naturally, with an open soul. After all, being a musician is always a little egoistic, me and my instrument, but if you find pleasure in what you do, you will always be able to share it. The worst thing is, if the musician just wants to shine. Then, neither the listeners nor the music gets anything good from that. Every day when I take the instrument into my hand is a new day…. I feel as if I was starting to discover something new, but not only in music – but in life as well. Listening is very important, not only listening to music, but to nature, and – most of all – to people. Everything in life is important and inspiring to me: cooking, travelling, walking on a beach… all the elements. After so many years I know that every time I play a piece I will play it differently, because it will be influenced by everyday life, by positive events but by negative things as well. My playing will always depend on my attitude towards the world outside and the emotions inside me at this very moment. Music is ‘la verita assoluta’ [absolute truth – ed.] – both on the emotional and rational level that are inseparably connected. I think that each of us can reach this level of elation and happiness, if you have an objective approach towards yourself and forget about the forms that limit you.

Carmelo Iorio – Italian jazz saxophonist. He studied at Scuola Popolare di Musica di Testaccio in Rome as well as at Latina Conservatoire (classical studies). He teaches saxophone and runs, as the director, various improvisation laboratories at many Rome jazz schools. With his Carmelo Iorio Quartet and as a soloist he has played at various music festivals including: Umbria Jazz, Orvieto Jazz, Villa Celimontana, Roccella Ionica Jazz, Alburni Jazz, Salzburg Jazz (Austria), Mont Louis (France), as well as in Zurich, Monaco, Hamburg and Cracow. He also played for Italian radio and TV broadcast companies such as: Rai Stereo Notte, RAI 2, RAI 3, Radio Vaticana. Since 2008 he has been the director of the ”Pantera Rosa” music school which he established in Fregene (Rome).

Katarzyna Chojnacka – pianist, she graduated from the Department of Composition, Theory and Musical Education of the Academy of Music in Katowice (a degree with distinction) and the Roman Pon-tificio Istituto di Musica Sacra – a diploma in piano playing (Master di II livello in Pianoforte). She has performer in Italy, Poland, Austria, Canada and the USA. For 8 years she has lived in Rome, where she plays concerts as well as teaches and composes music. She cooperates with various music groups, most often with Carmelo Iorio in a saxophone – piano duo whose repertoire oscillates between classical music and jazz.

From BEDRIFT SUMMER 2012.